Jun 4, 2023·edited Jun 4, 2023Liked by Tom Pendergast
Your feedback has helped me to become a much better writer, Tom, and it helped me to realize quickly that one of the fastest ways to grow as a writer is to get feedback from other experienced writers. But also, to truly understand and apply that feedback so that it becomes natural. It's gotten to the point where now I'm asking you to provide feedback on other people's stories so that we can compare notes. 🤣
Also, I don't know if you saw this, but I wanted to practice giving good feedback as well. So far, I've given feedback on three of the stories. Hopefully, for the better, but it takes practice doing that as well.
Yes, I think you and I are of the same temperment: I like both giving and receiving feedback. One of my (many) flaws though is that I'm not always at assessing if feedback is welcome (though I'm getting better). I probably assumed that everyone was like me -- eager for new viewpoints to see where they can improve. But as you point out, that's not always the case!
I always try to give constructive feedback though -- and that's the kind of feedback I like. Sometimes, feedback can be about the person, which I don't think it's the right approach. I believe feedback should be about the writing, not the writer (though I probably do praise the writer as much as the writing, rightly or wrongly...)
A writer friend of mine said once that you should learn how to give criticism before attempting, and I think that's a good idea. I was lucky -- one of the only things I learned in my university writing class was how to give and receive feedback. I'm not saying I'm perfect by any means. But as you point out, criticism is fraught with emotional landmines. Even if you do it perfectly, sometimes feelings get hurt. Learning at least the basics can increase helpfulness and decrease hurt feelings, in my experience.
Great post, Tom! (If you're open to hearing that...)
We HAVE had this conversation, haven’t we? And it was easy because of how much we agree. I think we’re probably temperamentally similar.
I was prompted to revisit this idea when I followed my own advice and asked a writer if they were open to feedback (assuming that the answer would be yes.) But I never got a reply. So I thought: huh, perhaps some people really don’t want feedback, for whatever reason. It will sound kind of silly to say this, because it sounds so bloody obvious, but one of the things I slowly learn in life is that other people’s brains just don’t work like mine. But it strikes me that if we can get feedback from people whose brains work differently we stand to learn a lot. The problem is, can we even hear that feedback, or is it just too discordant? I don’t know, just thinking out loud here.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I’m right there with you in thinking that I have a lot of room to grow in terms of how to give feedback.
Feedback is particularly helpful if it's from... I was going to say, "your typical reader", which is a little pigeonholely in itself. But definitely someone who falls into the Venn circle of your readership. So yes, I'd agree that ideas from discordant brains would be particularly helpful.
Reminds me of some business person (can't remember which) who said he only hires people who disagree with him, because he didn't want to be surrounded by yes-people. He already has his point of view; he doesn't need to hear it again from someone else.
Lots of good observations and there has been some talk on notes about feedback as well.
In order for people to speak their mind you have to invite them and create an environment for them so they feel comfortable to do so. Public places don't invite such behaviour.
Like a writer friend of mine used to say: It's a bit like when you are in a restaurant, you ordered your food and the meal is "meh" or even worse, you can't take another bite and the waiter comes around and asks "How is everything?" and you answer "Fine, thank you!" because the alternative is unthinkable.
Did you ever give feedback about a crappy dish at a restaurant?
Yeah, the “public” nature of the Substack comments section is really an interesting wrinkle, isn’t it? I think that’s why I start in the “back channel” (and often stay there). But I think there’s value in doing this in public too--I think we can help each other read and write more carefully as a result. But god, it does take a thick skin!
I do offer feedback at restaurants ... occasionally, and if I get the impression that the place cares. There’s an Italian joint that we go to in Seattle that really takes pride in their food, and one time I got a dish that was just over salted. I said so and the chef came out and apologized and said they must have double salted it and they were so glad somebody said something. So, good outcome for all concerned. Would that every interaction went like that, right? But it’s the “meh” stuff that’s the hardest, as you say. I think usually if I have a “meh” feeling, I just don’t go back (with writers and restaurants). Does this avoid a potentially fruitful engagement that prevents the writer/chef from improving?
Jun 4, 2023·edited Jun 4, 2023Liked by Tom Pendergast
As a writer, you better have a thick skin and a place to put all your rejection letters. Well, these days, they live in a folder in your inbox. I kept my physical ones.
I don't see Substack's primary function as a critique platform. There are writer groups you can join (via Substack!), find writers you can get along with even after telling them that scene sucked because xyz without fear of breaking eggs, you want to make an omelette, after all. Forgive the crude analogy. Having said that, I love the opportunity to connect with writers whose writing I enjoy and when we apply the rule of 80/20 combined with the amount of time we have at our disposal, we usually forget about the "meh" restaurants and move on. It's great that you told them about the salt. They care, you knew they would, it was worth it.
Wow, just wow - such a valuable post, Tom. No, it's more than valuable: it's important.
You've made me think a whole lot about feedback and reaction and how I judge both my own words and the words of others. I really enjoy the Comments space and like to bounce around thoughts and ideas with other readers and writers in the comments on both their posts and mine.
If I've enjoyed reading a post I'll certainly let the writer know that! <- I like this one! 😉
I like the comments space a lot too ... and Substack has thus far been a good space to have "honest" conversations, but it does require a lot of us doesn't it?
It's lovely when there's a comments buzz from a wide variety of people. I've never used Chat or Notes - I guess those offer further opportunities to engage and to supply and receive feedback. Keeping it simple over here, though!
I’m always happy to receive your feedback, Tom. I know it’s done from a generous place, and you seemed to also intuit that I want to improve and welcome opportunities. You get back the energy and space you put out ❤️
Aw, thanks Bryn. I think feedback works best when you really appreciate what the writer is trying to do and believe you can offer insight or an outside view--definitely what I see with yours. I’ve just so enjoyed watching the transformation in your work from a year or so ago, when I first started reading. It’s been wonderful to observe.
"I sometimes joke that if you don’t think your reviewer is an asshole and an idiot when you first read their feedback, one of you has done something wrong." This is so true, and it's good to review feedback when you have space and time to rebound from the feeling. At least for me. Tom, your framing of feedback is so useful. (And thanks for including me in the list, my friend!)
That's a helpful observation ... I mean, it helps me to understand why some of my comments might not land as I hoped. While I like positive feedback, what I find I really hope for is when someone tells me something didn't work or that they see an approach that might have worked better. It's harder to get, but more apt to help me improve. I try to give that kind of feedback gently, but it's not always appreciated.
Unless someone explicitly asks for my feedback, I assume they don't want it. If they put a piece out into the world, they may just want me to read it as a form of self-expression, which I think is perfectly valid. I've been in a lot of writer's groups over the years, and I think people are way too afraid of letting someone have an imperfect piece of writing, as if they're personally responsible for the crappiness of someone else's work. I also think that people often confuse "comfortable to read" with "good." Sometimes, the best writing requires time, patience, and willingness to trust the writer. Of course, this all stems from the view that there's such a thing as an objectively good piece of writing. There isn't. It's subjective. Some writing is more widely appreciated than others, but there are many variables that contribute to the success of a piece that don't necessarily have to do with the skill of the writer. I think the real danger is that someone will stop writing or they won't take risks because they're worried about what their critics will say. With that being said, I provided extensive feedback to a friend when she wrote the first draft of a novel, and that novel is coming out soon. I'm so proud to have been part of that process.
Love these observations ... You hint at something I’ve thought about, which is that a piece of writing isn’t always intended for “everyone,” but rather for the reader who is attuned to its message. I find a lot of writing that I don’t feel competent to respond to, I just don’t feel like I have anything useful to ad. But some writing feels to urgent and personal that I love to engage with it. I think I’m blathering! I really appreciate you reading, Amy.
That doesn't sound like blathering to me. Yes, I agree! We don't all respond to the same thing. We don't all like the same books, art, or music. We have different brains and different life experience, and that's one of the really cool and amazing parts about being human. If it was objective, we'd all have the same favorite book, movie, song, and painting.
❤️
Love the bird graphic and the FDD label haha. I’m easy breezy with feedback as well and welcome it all.
Your feedback has helped me to become a much better writer, Tom, and it helped me to realize quickly that one of the fastest ways to grow as a writer is to get feedback from other experienced writers. But also, to truly understand and apply that feedback so that it becomes natural. It's gotten to the point where now I'm asking you to provide feedback on other people's stories so that we can compare notes. 🤣
Also, I don't know if you saw this, but I wanted to practice giving good feedback as well. So far, I've given feedback on three of the stories. Hopefully, for the better, but it takes practice doing that as well.
https://substack.com/@futurethief/note/c-16798869?utm_source=notes-share-action
Hey, thanks man! I think you and I have had an unusually good writer/reader relationship.
I love the flow of tua and your commitment to your writing, and of helping others, brilliant 🤩
First, thanks a lot ... but what’s tua? Was that a mistype or is it something like feng shui that I don’t even know about? 😀
Tua everyone knows what tua means....hmmm...typo sort should have said this. The curse of fat fingers 🤦
I feel like we've had this conversation... lol
Yes, I think you and I are of the same temperment: I like both giving and receiving feedback. One of my (many) flaws though is that I'm not always at assessing if feedback is welcome (though I'm getting better). I probably assumed that everyone was like me -- eager for new viewpoints to see where they can improve. But as you point out, that's not always the case!
I always try to give constructive feedback though -- and that's the kind of feedback I like. Sometimes, feedback can be about the person, which I don't think it's the right approach. I believe feedback should be about the writing, not the writer (though I probably do praise the writer as much as the writing, rightly or wrongly...)
A writer friend of mine said once that you should learn how to give criticism before attempting, and I think that's a good idea. I was lucky -- one of the only things I learned in my university writing class was how to give and receive feedback. I'm not saying I'm perfect by any means. But as you point out, criticism is fraught with emotional landmines. Even if you do it perfectly, sometimes feelings get hurt. Learning at least the basics can increase helpfulness and decrease hurt feelings, in my experience.
Great post, Tom! (If you're open to hearing that...)
We HAVE had this conversation, haven’t we? And it was easy because of how much we agree. I think we’re probably temperamentally similar.
I was prompted to revisit this idea when I followed my own advice and asked a writer if they were open to feedback (assuming that the answer would be yes.) But I never got a reply. So I thought: huh, perhaps some people really don’t want feedback, for whatever reason. It will sound kind of silly to say this, because it sounds so bloody obvious, but one of the things I slowly learn in life is that other people’s brains just don’t work like mine. But it strikes me that if we can get feedback from people whose brains work differently we stand to learn a lot. The problem is, can we even hear that feedback, or is it just too discordant? I don’t know, just thinking out loud here.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful comment. I’m right there with you in thinking that I have a lot of room to grow in terms of how to give feedback.
Feedback is particularly helpful if it's from... I was going to say, "your typical reader", which is a little pigeonholely in itself. But definitely someone who falls into the Venn circle of your readership. So yes, I'd agree that ideas from discordant brains would be particularly helpful.
Reminds me of some business person (can't remember which) who said he only hires people who disagree with him, because he didn't want to be surrounded by yes-people. He already has his point of view; he doesn't need to hear it again from someone else.
Lots of good observations and there has been some talk on notes about feedback as well.
In order for people to speak their mind you have to invite them and create an environment for them so they feel comfortable to do so. Public places don't invite such behaviour.
Like a writer friend of mine used to say: It's a bit like when you are in a restaurant, you ordered your food and the meal is "meh" or even worse, you can't take another bite and the waiter comes around and asks "How is everything?" and you answer "Fine, thank you!" because the alternative is unthinkable.
Did you ever give feedback about a crappy dish at a restaurant?
Yeah, the “public” nature of the Substack comments section is really an interesting wrinkle, isn’t it? I think that’s why I start in the “back channel” (and often stay there). But I think there’s value in doing this in public too--I think we can help each other read and write more carefully as a result. But god, it does take a thick skin!
I do offer feedback at restaurants ... occasionally, and if I get the impression that the place cares. There’s an Italian joint that we go to in Seattle that really takes pride in their food, and one time I got a dish that was just over salted. I said so and the chef came out and apologized and said they must have double salted it and they were so glad somebody said something. So, good outcome for all concerned. Would that every interaction went like that, right? But it’s the “meh” stuff that’s the hardest, as you say. I think usually if I have a “meh” feeling, I just don’t go back (with writers and restaurants). Does this avoid a potentially fruitful engagement that prevents the writer/chef from improving?
As a writer, you better have a thick skin and a place to put all your rejection letters. Well, these days, they live in a folder in your inbox. I kept my physical ones.
I don't see Substack's primary function as a critique platform. There are writer groups you can join (via Substack!), find writers you can get along with even after telling them that scene sucked because xyz without fear of breaking eggs, you want to make an omelette, after all. Forgive the crude analogy. Having said that, I love the opportunity to connect with writers whose writing I enjoy and when we apply the rule of 80/20 combined with the amount of time we have at our disposal, we usually forget about the "meh" restaurants and move on. It's great that you told them about the salt. They care, you knew they would, it was worth it.
And with all that 80/20 talk, I am reminded of the Dunning-Kruger effect and a quote by John Cleese (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnpY46lOTX4&t=3345s). ;)
Wow, just wow - such a valuable post, Tom. No, it's more than valuable: it's important.
You've made me think a whole lot about feedback and reaction and how I judge both my own words and the words of others. I really enjoy the Comments space and like to bounce around thoughts and ideas with other readers and writers in the comments on both their posts and mine.
If I've enjoyed reading a post I'll certainly let the writer know that! <- I like this one! 😉
I like the comments space a lot too ... and Substack has thus far been a good space to have "honest" conversations, but it does require a lot of us doesn't it?
It's lovely when there's a comments buzz from a wide variety of people. I've never used Chat or Notes - I guess those offer further opportunities to engage and to supply and receive feedback. Keeping it simple over here, though!
Three minute praise feedback sandwich is a good rule. I could do with more feedback, not less.
~
1: something you like (I liked your own post here as I think it is broadly true)
2: something you find annoying or wrong (I think troll writers and fascists need a good kicking)
3: Something else you like (I think in general you are correct - that if a writer gets no feedback at all, then they will perish and give up).
💯 Glad you started with "Is feedback welcome?" In writing, and in life, great advice! :)
I’m always happy to receive your feedback, Tom. I know it’s done from a generous place, and you seemed to also intuit that I want to improve and welcome opportunities. You get back the energy and space you put out ❤️
Aw, thanks Bryn. I think feedback works best when you really appreciate what the writer is trying to do and believe you can offer insight or an outside view--definitely what I see with yours. I’ve just so enjoyed watching the transformation in your work from a year or so ago, when I first started reading. It’s been wonderful to observe.
This is all such great advice! And thank you for mentioning my post on rejection. We take it all so hard and it's not personal!
You bet; thank you. Your advice on “types of apples” was perfect. I’ve tried redoing it for types of beer, but it’s not nearly as universal.
"I sometimes joke that if you don’t think your reviewer is an asshole and an idiot when you first read their feedback, one of you has done something wrong." This is so true, and it's good to review feedback when you have space and time to rebound from the feeling. At least for me. Tom, your framing of feedback is so useful. (And thanks for including me in the list, my friend!)
Great post! I like giving/receiving feedback - and always try to use the tone I'd want used if directed to me.
That's a helpful observation ... I mean, it helps me to understand why some of my comments might not land as I hoped. While I like positive feedback, what I find I really hope for is when someone tells me something didn't work or that they see an approach that might have worked better. It's harder to get, but more apt to help me improve. I try to give that kind of feedback gently, but it's not always appreciated.
I know - sometimes you just can't gauge how the recipient is going to take it. And that can vary from time to time - making it a bit of a crapshoot!
This Kris Mole character seems like one chilled out dude.
He paid me to make him sound even cooler than he really is
+1 about inviting the feedback. Great post, and thanks for the rabbit trail of links you provided. Will be checking out Sarah Fay as well.
I’ve really been appreciating Sarah Fay’s stuff, glad you like it
Unless someone explicitly asks for my feedback, I assume they don't want it. If they put a piece out into the world, they may just want me to read it as a form of self-expression, which I think is perfectly valid. I've been in a lot of writer's groups over the years, and I think people are way too afraid of letting someone have an imperfect piece of writing, as if they're personally responsible for the crappiness of someone else's work. I also think that people often confuse "comfortable to read" with "good." Sometimes, the best writing requires time, patience, and willingness to trust the writer. Of course, this all stems from the view that there's such a thing as an objectively good piece of writing. There isn't. It's subjective. Some writing is more widely appreciated than others, but there are many variables that contribute to the success of a piece that don't necessarily have to do with the skill of the writer. I think the real danger is that someone will stop writing or they won't take risks because they're worried about what their critics will say. With that being said, I provided extensive feedback to a friend when she wrote the first draft of a novel, and that novel is coming out soon. I'm so proud to have been part of that process.
Love these observations ... You hint at something I’ve thought about, which is that a piece of writing isn’t always intended for “everyone,” but rather for the reader who is attuned to its message. I find a lot of writing that I don’t feel competent to respond to, I just don’t feel like I have anything useful to ad. But some writing feels to urgent and personal that I love to engage with it. I think I’m blathering! I really appreciate you reading, Amy.
That doesn't sound like blathering to me. Yes, I agree! We don't all respond to the same thing. We don't all like the same books, art, or music. We have different brains and different life experience, and that's one of the really cool and amazing parts about being human. If it was objective, we'd all have the same favorite book, movie, song, and painting.
Very valid points, especially the risk that someone might give up writing altogether. What a potential loss, both for their readership and themselves